An open discussion about oil filters.

[Jeffytune]

I orignally posted this over at vtwins, and Mega asked If i would repost it here.

HI all.

A few weeks back, there was a post asking about using Baldwin filters.
Wile it would seem that the whole post is now gone, this was the catalyst that started me down this path, and what I have found has quite shaken what I thought to be true, and I feel I need to pass this on to all of you here.

I will state plainly that I have no dog in the fight, I do not, nor have I ever worked for Harley Davidson, I do not even own stock in it.
My hope is to have a discussion, and though I am sure I will bend a couple noises out of joint, it is not what I am trying to do, I am only passing this on to you with the hope it will save you down the road.

I was always told by filter companies and in school, you use a filter that is made and designed for the engine and vehicle.
As we all know, or should know about our Twin cams is that the first factory oil filter is that the first design was the standard 30 Micron type, the same ones they used for the EVO and sportster engines, but they found out quickly that this cause issues in the engine, mainly, the oil feed holes to the cam tensioners would clog up, and the oil pumps could not maintain pressure.
The problems only got worse with more dirt and soot.
So the company made a new filter, a 10 Micro that solved or slowed down these Issues, until the "B" and the 06 Dyna. These Engines needed the filtration taken to the 5 Micro level, and now that the all the 07's used this, they have replaced the 10 with the new super 5 filter.

The Issue with the new tensioner design is this, the oil feed holes to the tensioners get restricted and clogged if you do not use a 5 Micron filter, is this is the reason why the company went to the new Super 5 filter.

With this all said, if you use the factory filter, you should be just fine, the problem is this, the aftermarket filters have not ben following Harley on this.
When the guy with the Baldwin question challenged my answer, I made a call to Baldwin on the tech line, what i learned in the call got me calling other filter manufactures, and well, I was dismayed.

You have to understand form a manufactures point of view, Harley's are a very small market, compared to say a Toyota or a Chevy or Dodge, but it cost the same amount of capital to gear up to make a filter and test and so on, so most filters you see listed in the Aftermarket, are in fact, filters made for cars that they feel will work. They based there estimate on the first design 30 micron filter, and found filters that had a similar flow and filtration characteristics, you know, close to, but not the same.
The way they measure filtration is by what is the largest size the media will capture, the smaller the number, the smalled the particle. anything smaller then the number will pass through the filter.

Here are some that I have checked on....

Baldwin B1413 18 Micron

Wix 51215 24 Micron
Wix 51348 (SE Engines)19 Micron

Fram PH6022 24 Micron

K&N KN171b or c 10 Micron

Harley 63731-99a 5 Micron

Champ did not list Info on a filter for Harley's, Champ said it is because they make Harley's filters.
What they all had in common was they were either a Mazda filter or Chrysler filter, and they all were unaware Harley had gone to a 5 Micron. Only the K&N was a Harley only filter, but they were not aware Harley had gone to a 5 micron either.
All the Non-Harley filters all have a By-pass set at around 8 pounds, and wile i could not get the info on what the Harley is set at, John at Paradise Harley said that the Harley by pass is far Higher, and would check on it on the morning for me, and I will report back.

Bottom line here is this, with all the money we spend to buy our bikes, with all the money we spend to build them up, for 8.95 you can get the super 5 black filter, and lower the risk to your engine, 13.95 if you have to have chrome.
I hate to pay full retail for parts, as a tech i get stuff at wholesale, but I will buy the Harley filter, because you just can't get the right filter for you bike, even if the catalog says it will fit, it is not a factory equivalent, and may do long term damages to your engine.
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[Jeffytune]

Ok, as I said, I was waiting for some Info John was getting for Harley tech.

By-pass valves. This is the valve inside the filter that is the safety system in case the filter media were to get restricted to point the oil can not flow enough through it, it allows oil to go around the filter media.
Better to have dirty oil flowing then no oil and seize and engine.

These spring loaded valves have a set pressure that they will open at, it is not the pressure in the oil system, but the difference between the incoming and outgoing pressure.

Almost all the Aftermarket filters that I looked at all have a by-pass set at around 8 pounds, one 10 but most at 8 pounds differential.

Wile this works fine with lead Babbitt Bearing engines, Harley Engines are cage roller bearings, which do not have the back pressure inherent in a Babbitt style system, because of this, the oil pressure on the outflow is far lower.

For this reason, Harley's Engineers set the new Super 5 have a by-pass set at 60psi!

This means that these other filters will push the majority of the oil through the by-pass valve instead of filtering it.

So, you can choice to use a filter that lets larger pieces of dirt through, if it filters at all and doesn't just by-pass the oil around the filter, or use can use a filter that will force it through a finer filter to keep it clean wile maintaining the proper flow rate.

At this point, the only filters I can find that do this are the Harley super 5, and possibly the Amsoil filter, but I still need to find out what the by-pass is set at, but from what I have seen, it seems likely to be a good filter...But I need more info.

For now, I will stay with the Harley super 5 filter.
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[y2k king]

good info.......i never thought about it. i always used harley filters, but didn't even check the microns.:hmm2:

[TalonChief]

Thanks, Jeff--great info.

[TerryMiller]

Thanks for all the work. You must really have some time in this.

[dwarthog]

Great info, thanks for posting it over here.

[trmn8r]

Great info but now I got a question for you.
(edit... question for you or someone smarter than me about this... which pretty much opens it up to everyone)

If the harley filter is set to bypass at 60 psi, does that mean that it would only bypass if I were to be seeing 60 psi on the oil pressure gauge? I know you said that bypass pressure was the difference in inlet/outlet and not the pressure in the oil system... but if there is a 60# difference would that mean I would have to be reading over 60# on gauge to have that difference. I guess this comes down to ... I dont know where gauge pressure is tapped from or where the pressure is high/low etc.

Also if other filters bypass at 8-10# then would I be bypassing at anything over that on the gauge?

The above questions are just my curiousness... I dont plan on deviating from my current harley filter... though I did run a couple of K&N's (that seemed to work ok with what I knew then) I went back to the factory filter and plan on staying with it.

[dwarthog]

I do believe the oil pressure gauge is in the side from the filter ---> engine and not in the path from pump ---> filter. Which would explain why we don't see those high oil pressure on the oil gauge and why making mods that have the effect of increasing oil pressure do not cause a problem by forcing oil past the bypass valve on the filter.

[trmn8r]

I have a hard time understanding the oiling system on HD just cause its not one you see much... where same pump scavenges oil from motor and pumps it through motor. Do baggers FLH whatever have a dry scavenged system like those that have a seperate oil tank? I had always assumed they did till I got my bike and saw oil is stored in a "pan" under motor... maybe they dont scavenge the oil from motor? Got a big learning curve one of these days when my warrenty runs out and I decide its time to go to 98".

[LittleBear]

Harley Oiling on a Twin Cam
First thing to understand is the oil pump has two sides, just like two separate pumps. A feed side and a scavenge side.
1. Oil starts in separate tank. Under the Transmission on FLH and Dyna and in the horse shoe tank on Softails.
2. Feed side of pump sucks oil out of tank and into pump.
3. Pump feeds oil to filter and back to Cam support plate for distribution in motor.
4. Cam Support plate sends oil to all the components in the motor. To the lifters, up the push rods to the rocker arms and valves in the heads. To the crankshaft and piston oilers and all other parts requiring oil.
5. Oil drains back into the bottom of the motor from the heads, cams and crank components.
6. The scavenge side of the pump picks up the oil and sends it back to the tank.
At any given time there is probably never any more than 12 ounces of oil in the motor. The rest is in the oil tank.
As far as the bypass pressure rating on an oil filter, that is the pressure differential across the filter media. An example of a 10 PSI bypass filter: If the pump is creating 30 PSI of pressure on the intake side of the filter, and the filter media is restricted, either due to being clogged with contaminates or cold thick oil, requiring more than 10 pounds of pressure to push the oil through the media, (meaning the oil pressure on the backside of the filter is below 20 pounds) the bypass valve opens to allow oil to flow around the filter media and maintain at least 20 pounds of oil pressure in the system.

[LittleBear]

Ok, as I said, I was waiting for some Info John was getting for Harley tech.

By-pass valves. This is the valve inside the filter that is the safety system in case the filter media were to get restricted to point the oil can not flow enough through it, it allows oil to go around the filter media.
Better to have dirty oil flowing then no oil and seize and engine.

These spring loaded valves have a set pressure that they will open at, it is not the pressure in the oil system, but the difference between the incoming and outgoing pressure.

Almost all the Aftermarket filters that I looked at all have a by-pass set at around 8 pounds, one 10 but most at 8 pounds differential.

Wile this works fine with lead Babbitt Bearing engines, Harley Engines are cage roller bearings, which do not have the back pressure inherent in a Babbitt style system, because of this, the oil pressure on the outflow is far lower.

For this reason, Harley's Engineers set the new Super 5 have a by-pass set at 60psi!

This means that these other filters will push the majority of the oil through the by-pass valve instead of filtering it.

So, you can choice to use a filter that lets larger pieces of dirt through, if it filters at all and doesn't just by-pass the oil around the filter, or use can use a filter that will force it through a finer filter to keep it clean wile maintaining the proper flow rate.

At this point, the only filters I can find that do this are the Harley super 5, and possibly the Amsoil filter, but I still need to find out what the by-pass is set at, but from what I have seen, it seems likely to be a good filter...But I need more info.

For now, I will stay with the Harley super 5 filter.
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I call BS on the 60 PSI bypass valve. With that high of rating, if the filter clogged, the motor would starve for oil, because the pump does not put out that much pressure when hot.
In a fluid flow system, the fluid takes the path of least resistance. If you have filter media and a 10 psi bypass valve in parallel, which you do, the fluid will flow through the media if is takes less than 10 psi to push the oil through it. If it takes more than 10 psi to push oil through the media, the bypass valve will open and let the oil flow. You do not have to have back pressure on the output of the filter to prevent the bypass valve from opening as long as the filter media flows oil at a pressure lower than the bypass valve pressure.

[dwarthog]

Just to keep a good oil discussion going...

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Filters.html#OilFilters

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

Info about bypass valves and oil filters.

[Jeffytune]

I call BS on the 60 PSI bypass valve. With that high of rating, if the filter clogged, the motor would starve for oil, because the pump does not put out that much pressure when hot.
In a fluid flow system, the fluid takes the path of least resistance. If you have filter media and a 10 psi bypass valve in parallel, which you do, the fluid will flow through the media if is takes less than 10 psi to push the oil through it. If it takes more than 10 psi to push oil through the media, the bypass valve will open and let the oil flow. You do not have to have back pressure on the output of the filter to prevent the bypass valve from opening as long as the filter media flows oil at a pressure lower than the bypass valve pressure.

I got this strait from a trusted friend who is a Tech at a dealership, and got that info from Harley technical services in Milwaukee.
And if the filter gets clogged, it will push it to the by-pass.

Of course if you change your oil at 3000/3months, you will never have this Issue to begin with.

[8-Ball]

It seems I remember a discussion George Douglas had about this down the street when they introduced their new 5 micron filter. My memory tells me that the Amsoil filter is good to go on Harley V-Twin.

I'd like to see George weigh in on this one.

I'm currently using the Amsoil filter.

[Jeffytune]

Great info but now I got a question for you.
(edit... question for you or someone smarter than me about this... which pretty much opens it up to everyone)

If the harley filter is set to bypass at 60 psi, does that mean that it would only bypass if I were to be seeing 60 psi on the oil pressure gauge? I know you said that bypass pressure was the difference in inlet/outlet and not the pressure in the oil system... but if there is a 60# difference would that mean I would have to be reading over 60# on gauge to have that difference. I guess this comes down to ... I dont know where gauge pressure is tapped from or where the pressure is high/low etc.

Also if other filters bypass at 80-10# then would I be bypassing at anything over that on the gauge?

The above questions are just my curiousness... I dont plan on deviating from my current harley filter... though I did run a couple of K&N's (that seemed to work ok with what I knew then) I went back to the factory filter and plan on staying with it.

That is 8 to 10 pounds, not 80.
It is the pressure difference between inlet and outlet pressure.
Things you have to also consider is the material the element it made form, the Harley Sure 5 is a synthetic element, so is the Amsoil unit as well as the K&N. The other ones I listed are paper element.

Wile the K&N claims to be a OEM equivalent, when i called, they stated that there filter is a 10-20 Micron, so it is not.

George from Amsoil will post up more info on there filter as soon as he gets home from Daytona, and I will share that as well.

[trmn8r]

uuuhhh yea thats what I said!.... ok not really but now I said it, see go look. I meant 8 -10 ... no really I did! 80-10 wouldn't even make sense now would it :whistling:

[TXCHOP]

How bout the new H-D definitive (catridge) filtration system. Has anyone used or examined one.. My local dealer has no even sold one yet to comment.

Or was this discussed and i missed it????

It is still a 5 micron system,so what the point. The only benefit i see in the sytem is ease of changing and less mess....the replacements are still 12.95

[LittleBear]

I got this strait from a trusted friend who is a Tech at a dealership, and got that info from Harley technical services in Milwaukee.
And if the filter gets clogged, it will push it to the by-pass.

Of course if you change your oil at 3000/3months, you will never have this Issue to begin with.

And Syn Oil will flat spot your roller bearing because it is too slick. Got that straight from a Harley tech as well. It was the H-D's official line for years.
Sorry, at 60 psi bypass, why even have a bypass valve, especially on an EVO where the pump never reaches that pressure.
If you can post the Technical Specification H-D uses to purchase its filters, I may bite, but at this point, no way.
Do they still make a separate filter for EVOs?
In addition, all synthetic filter elements could be considered 5 micron because they will all catch a 5 micron particle every now and then. The real question is filter efficiency at the 5 micron rating, both single pass and multi pass efficiency which H-D fails to publish anywhere.
I am not saying H-D are not good filters, I think they are, but to judge other filters solely on their micron filtration rating is BS.
Could it be the H-D tech was talking about the oil bypass valve in the cam plate was rated at 60 psi. That one I could believe.
One final comment, if the TC motor requires 5 micron filtration to prevent it from clocking oil lines and holes, it is a piss poor design.

[LittleBear]

see attached.

Micron

[dwarthog]

It wasn't too long ago I seem to recall that HD said putting synthetic oil in their motors would cause them to fail.

Gotta give HD credit for keeping the marketing drumbeat going on their HD labeled products being the only suitable replacement parts for their bikes.