Starting problems, ignition???

[Berserker]

Looking for some help. Also posted this as VTF. Open for any suggestions.

LAst year put in Crane fireball. Wouldn’t start one time unplugged and plugged in, after screwing around with for awhile. Was humid out, that maybe moisture. Few days later, would not start and put stock back in ran replaced with DTT.

Left on vacation, with a DTT. Got in the mountains, and would not start. Put in stock started, DTT in nothing. Ran stock for few thousand miles. Replaced volt reg thinking it was frying them, had some burnt out bulbs. Also replaced CPK sensor cause I had one, and had VR off.

2k miles later stalls after coasting down big hill. Though I flooded it. Hard to start. Backfired few times, finally started.

Yesterday, rode about 20 miles, gassed up, had hard time starting. Rode 15 miles started fine. Rode 2 miles home, stalled as pulled in garage, good timing. Would not start. 20 minutes later still would not start. Put stock in fired up. 10 minutes later tried DTT fired up too.

Yesterday big storm was coming and temp dropped. Barometric pressure drop? Wondering if map sensor?

Also have been getting a bit of pinging lately, more so then normal. Though I ran fine on vacation. Wondered if I was getting bad gas or running 80 on interstate, cleared up carbon? Dunno. Maybe not related.


Either way when it does this, the bike turns over. Back fires, sounds like running kinda slow, like its about to start. I have tried with aftermarket nothing, plugged stock in and fires up. Sometimes putting aftermarket in will start up, sometimes not.

It seems to like stock, but if you wait long enough, seems to run aftermarket. Smoked a start clutch out of town last year. Few days later, started up. At the time I though plugs were fouled, kinda black.

Went through 2 ignitions, manufactures gave me new ones. They said could not find anything wrong, but said they don’t test for everything.


Trying to include everything. Internet is down at my house so will check again when I can.

2001 FLHR, 16k miles on 98”, 50k on bikes. 9.7 cr, Andrews 37g, SE44. Battery is 6 years old, but cranks fine. Replaced volt reg , plug wires, and crank sensor. Used lots of dielectric grease in ign connectors.

Also been having lots of hard starts when hot. Don’t remember this many last year, does it all the time now, even after few hours. Been hitting starting button quick, and then starting. No grinding then. Maybe was as bad last year, didn’t think so.

Any help appreciated.

[Berserker]

starting ok now, but haven't left the garage. Any comments, questions, concerns, theories?

[chnpostal]

I can only relate this to what happened to mine, and since your battery is 6 years old, it could be similar. The crane ignition is less forgiving on a voltage drop when cranking than the stock ignition. Try putting a voltmeter across the battery terminals when starting.....if it drops below 11 volts on a full charge, then the battery needs replacing. If it drops below 9 volts when cranking, then the crane will not work well enough to start the engine, and in my case it fouled the plugs in short order. Cranked the motor over just fine....but not enough voltage left for the ignition.

[Jams]

You are sure it isn't a fuel problem?

Stalling and hard starting can be fuel problem.

[Berserker]

I can only relate this to what happened to mine, and since your battery is 6 years old, it could be similar. The crane ignition is less forgiving on a voltage drop when cranking than the stock ignition. Try putting a voltmeter across the battery terminals when starting.....if it drops below 11 volts on a full charge, then the battery needs replacing. If it drops below 9 volts when cranking, then the crane will not work well enough to start the engine, and in my case it fouled the plugs in short order. Cranked the motor over just fine....but not enough voltage left for the ignition.

Good question.
But the when it stalled week before I eventually got it started, took awhile same as, when at gas station. At the house I ranthe bike for about 30s, to charge the battery. Then it did start with DTT. I don't know how long you ahve to run a bike to charge it. Just makes me feel better.

[Berserker]

You are sure it isn't a fuel problem?

Stalling and hard starting can be fuel problem.

Dunno, spark and fuel are the major componets. Bike has never stalled before, that I can remember. Stalled after coasting down a huge hill with clutch in, then stalled this time as I was getting ready to get off in the garage.

[Berserker]

I don't get email notificatins from this site for PMs or subscribed threads. But do get the emails about events and such?????

[TerryMiller]

I don't get email notificatins from this site for PMs or subscribed threads. But do get the emails about events and such?????

Control Panel / Edit Options / Default Subscription Mode

Set the drop down to anything other than "Do not Subscribe".

Edit: By the way I think chnpostal's advice is the most sound. Hundreds of people use these things. Changing the ignition to stock always works, so it must be getting fuel.

I've seen lots of electrical stuff not work because the power wasn't there. Bad ground, loose connection, or insufficient power. It always gives problems when the alternator isn't putting out much, so on the battery.

[captainlee]

I think your Crane fireball is shot and overheating. I had a 98 sporty and it checked out fine everytime. It had to get to a certain temperature and then it would miss and then not start. take a can of freon and when it does this "cool it down" and i bet you it will start and run fine, of course til it overheats again.

[Jams]

Dunno, spark and fuel are the major componets. Bike has never stalled before, that I can remember. Stalled after coasting down a huge hill with clutch in, then stalled this time as I was getting ready to get off in the garage.

Intermittent problems are the hardest to track down. If you can figure how to create the problem on demand then you can locate the fault with ease. But that don't usually happen in the real world.

A malfunctioning petcock or plugged / restricted fuel line will cause stalling and hard starting.

The process of elimination I always start with is making sure the gas is turned on, then I look for spark.

[Berserker]

Control Panel / Edit Options / Default Subscription Mode

Set the drop down to anything other than "Do not Subscribe".

Edit: By the way I think chnpostal's advice is the most sound. Hundreds of people use these things. Changing the ignition to stock always works, so it must be getting fuel.

I've seen lots of electrical stuff not work because the power wasn't there. Bad ground, loose connection, or insufficient power. It always gives problems when the alternator isn't putting out much, so on the battery.
Willthis help me get email notification, for threads I subscriebed too? I am thinking Yaho is blocking them, but doesn't block the newsletters.

[Berserker]

I think your Crane fireball is shot and overheating. I had a 98 sporty and it checked out fine everytime. It had to get to a certain temperature and then it would miss and then not start. take a can of freon and when it does this "cool it down" and i bet you it will start and run fine, of course til it overheats again.

This my third ignition, 1 crane and two DTTs.

Either something is damaging the ignitions or the aftermarkets are more sensitive to something.

This has been going on for over 12k miles.

[TerryMiller]

Willthis help me get email notification, for threads I subscriebed too? I am thinking Yaho is blocking them, but doesn't block the newsletters.

Did you choose to be notified by e-mail there?

[Berserker]

The Crane would spark as soon as the key was turned on. Kinda worked good as a compression release. I have replaced the CPK. I bough one, just in case. Carried it for 8k miles or some and figured might as well install it.

The DTTs don't fire when I turn the key on.

[Berserker]

Did you choose to be notified by e-mail there?

Not sure if someone is screwing with me or what. This is the first notice I have email I have gotten.

[Berserker]

Friday, had trouble starting at gas station. Rode 15 miles fine, then roade 2 miles stalled at house. Cranked and cranked, nothing. 20 minutes later tried DTT, nothing, plugged in stock, just let hang so only couple minutes, fired up, ran for about 30 seconds. 5-10 minutes later came out and tried DTT fired right up.

Low voltage sounds possible, but why did it stall? Why isn't the DTT throwing a code for low voltage?

Why does the stock always work and the aftermarket doesn't always?

[Berserker]

Does the MAP sensor effect starting? Temp dropped for storm coming in. Failed in the mountains once. HAd trouble 1st time when humid. But none of the ignitions has ever thrown a code for MAP.

Crane would throw one for CPK if it failed to start, when cranking on it. DTT has never gave a code for anything.

[Jams]

At the top of this page where it says "Quick Links" scroll that down to "Subscribed Threads" and see what is the notification option in the second from the right box. Then you can go to the bottom of that page and scroll the box down to change the notification method. Instant, daily or weekly recap are the options I think.

[Berserker]

At the top of this page where it says "Quick Links" scroll that down to "Subscribed Threads" and see what is the notification option in the second from the right box. Then you can go to the bottom of that page and scroll the box down to change the notification method. Instant, daily or weekly recap are the options I think.

Did that before. For some reason I am thinking Yahoo filters it. I did jsut get one notification, 5 minutes ago.

Either way, I got worse problems

[Berserker]

Bike keeps starting in the garage, with DTT. Weather has been bad and working so haven't left. If it was a weak battery I would think it not be starting. Though I am not suking it out. I did turn on passing lamps which 50 each, when starting to see if it would cause a problem.

Maybe some kind of feul venting problem? Something getting hot? Loose wire?

Intermitant sucks, but I guess it better then calling for a tow truck. Got me home.

I have considered putting a hair dryer on the igntion or putting in over at 100.

Maybe put a space heater near it for an hour. Take 10 years off its life.

[LittleBear]

1. Replace the battery. It is only a matter of time it will die and leave you stranded. At 6 years old, you got your money out of it.
2. Check the ground wire to the motor. I believe it connects to a starter mounting bolt and to the frame. Remove it from the frame side and verify the connection is good and no corrosion on the terminal and no paint under the lug. On some, they did not remove the paint around the lug and they make a poor contact. On others the terminal lug is not welded properly and can cause a bad connection. Make sure the wire is not broken at either end. It gets to move around a lot with the motor shaking. Give the wire lugs a tug, they should not come off.
3. Do the same for the ground wire from the battery if it is not connected to the same point.
4. Do the same for the positive wire to the starter and to the ignition switch.
Check your ignition switch connections, they have been know to come lose on Road Kings and cause intermittent starting issues. That connector likes to come off the switch or just wiggle lose and cause issues.
5. Follow the wiring harness from the ignition module to where ever it goes. Check for wear or abrasion in the harness. You could be wiggling it around when you swap out ignitions and causing it to work until it vibrates back into position and shorts out again.

[Berserker]

Good things to check, and I will. Do you think bad ground is killing ignitons? Why not stock? Tougher?

Wondered about connectors to the ignition. 1st time unplugging and plugging worked. But on 2nd and 3rd attempts, only worked with stock. This time worked wity DTT after stock started.

top tab on top connect is broken. Buts its always a bugger to unplug the conenctors, so doubt loose.

Always works when plugging in stock ignition, so far. Someimes seems work after cools. Sometimes works after starting with stock and then pluggin in after market, but not always.

Never used to stall, but has done it twice recently. Once after coasting, once when pulling into garage. Used to not start when acting up with stock. But twice now after cranking on it a few times and backfire it would start. In garage last time cranked on it for long time, no start.


Just not sure what the consitancy is. ther then alwasy starts with stock ignition, for now.

[Berserker]

1. Replace the battery. It is only a matter of time it will die and leave you stranded. At 6 years old, you got your money out of it.
.

Yes in the very near future. While I haven't ruled out low voltage, it does start with stock ign after cranking on it for awhile with after market. Maybe after market more sensitive. Is 30 secs enough to recharge battery??

[Berserker]

4. Do the same for the positive wire to the starter and to the ignition switch.
Check your ignition switch connections, they have been know to come lose on Road Kings and cause intermittent starting issues. That connector likes to come off the switch or just wiggle lose and cause issues.
5.

PO installed after new handle bars with internal wiring, looks great

[LittleBear]

Well, if the only difference is the ignition modules, then check the pins on hte modules.
Does the DTT use all the pins the stock ignition uses? If not, which ones are not used?
Are the pins or sockets the same length in both modules?
Are any of the pins in the harness connector pushed in just a little to prevent good contact with the DTT module?

When the DTT module craps out, do you loose any other functions on the bike like the speedo, flashers, turn signals? This would indicate a low voltage.

With the stock module installed and the bike running, will the flashers, passing lamps, brake light and horn all work at the same time? If not, low voltage.

Sorry out of ideas.

My best bet is still the battery. I know it sounds strange, but what is the static voltage on the battery with the bike off, and what is the voltage drop when you push the starter button?

[Berserker]

Well, if the only difference is the ignition modules, then check the pins on hte modules.
Does the DTT use all the pins the stock ignition uses? If not, which ones are not used?

When the DTT module craps out, do you loose any other functions on the bike like the speedo, flashers, turn signals? This would indicate a low voltage.

With the stock module installed and the bike running, will the flashers, passing lamps, brake light and horn all work at the same time? If not, low voltage.


My best bet is still the battery. I know it sounds strange, but what is the static voltage on the battery with the bike off, and what is the voltage drop when you push the starter button?

Its been 3 ignitions, so doubt pins, unless there is some difference in what the aftermarket ignition use.

I wonder if there is some weird thing with batterry. But I haven't put it on a charger and eventually starts. The two times I was able to get it started with DTT, I kept cranking on it. You would think voltage would keep dropping. But I do wonder if it is some weird volt thing. Consdier leaving lights on for awhile, monitoring voltage, and trying to start it various voltage levels.
'

Tonight will look at voltage and grounds.

Why did it stall, shouldn't have been running on charging system? Maybe stall is something differant.

[jimmymac]

I'd go get a battery, and try that first, but that's me.

I had some similar stuff going on with my riding mower earlier in the Spring. Thing would be running fine, then just crap out for no good reason. Battery would crank it back over and the process would repeat, so I figured the battery was fine and the problem was something else. I checked the ground, looked at the wires, etc. Neighbor is a mechanic. I tell him what's going on. He says, how old is the battery. I tell him it's 6 years old. He says replace it. It's due anyway. I changed it out and the thing has been running fine for the last month and a half.

Have no idea if that's your problem, but I beat my head against the wall needlessly for a couple days.

[Berserker]

Installed a map sensor. Figured only $43, and had 50k. My plan is to rebuild bike as I drive it.

On one had I don't think battery, cause there were two times, I could get it started if I kept cranking. Though maybe was weak, kept cranking long enough and it fired.

Other times I had to install stock and then start, last time I was able to start with DTT afterwards. Other times no.


Now something interesting. Unfortunately the fluke I have at home does not read tenths, not a big deal, my other one I forgot a work, is hanging on generator panel. Hopefully still there tomorrow.

But battery read 12, started ran for about 30-45 seconds and then read 13. As mentioned after market ign may be more sensitive to low votlages. I didn't think the short time would be enough to charge it. Maybe.

Had never thrown a low voltage code.

Maybe my $43 dollar imagination but it did seem to run better. Handle reving while cold better, usually stalls, seemed to warm up faster. But maybe not.


I left the tourpak and seat off, thinking about new battery. Supposed to be violent storms tomorrow anyways.

I know I need a new battery, and plan to get one soon. But would sure like to know what the problem is.

[Berserker]

I might get my good meter, and leave the lights on watching battery voltage. Try starting at 11.5 with aftermarket. See at what point aftermarkey will not start and see if stock will.

Or maybe will just buy a new battery, its 6 years old, and go riding.

[TerryMiller]

If you're soliciting opinions, I vote for the second one.

[chnpostal]

Here ya go......cut & paste time......more info than you'd probably want..:D

First things first. A 12-volt battery is not a 12-volt battery. Twelve volts is just a nominal, convenient term used to distinguish one battery from another. A fully-charged 12-volt battery, allowed to "rest" for a few hours (or days) with no load being drawn from it (or charge going to it), will balance out its charge and measure about 12.6 volts between terminals.

When a battery reads only 12 volts under the above conditions, it's almost fully depleted. Actually, if a battery's resting voltage is only 12.0 to 12.1 it means only 20 to 25% of its useful energy remains. It's either a goner or it has been deep cycled, and a battery can only be deep-cycled a limited number of times before it is indeed dead.

12-volt batteries supply useful energy only through a limited range -- from over 14 volts (when fully charged and unrested) down to 10.5 volts in use/under load (when lights dim, your motorcycle is hard to start). No 12-volt battery will remain at over 14 volts for more than seconds unless it's being charged. The lowest limit is 10.5 volts (used in testing) and obviously unsatisfactory in practical use

http://www.doofclenas.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2453&stc=1&d=1181196274

On a side note, Beserker......."Straight jacket memories and sedative highs"......from your VTF sig........Queensryche fan, perhaps? :D

[Berserker]

The meter I was using does not read 10ths. I have one but left it at work. Bike has also been sitting in garage since Friday, and started many times.

I am just not sure. I kep cranking on bike and it starts? 1st time I just unplugeed and plugged back in? I am not ruling out battery.

Alwasy starts with stock. But maybe stocki s not as sensitve to MAP or voltage

[Berserker]

Friday, rode to work 35 miles. Sat 8 hurs. Rode 20 miles, gased up, had hard time starting cranked on it for awhile. Rode 15, then rode 2 stalled. Cranked for a long long time. Put stock in, ok. Then DTT ok. Been starting every day,but riding it. I just have troubl believing it battery. Not ruling it out. But I cranked on it a long time, in the garage Friday. Have not gone for a rdie to charge battery.

[Berserker]

On a side note, Beserker......."Straight jacket memories and sedative highs"......from your VTF sig........Queensryche fan, perhaps? :D

I like a few of there songs, but don't know them all. Just liked that line.

[chnpostal]

I like a few of there songs, but don't know them all. Just liked that line.

Just curious...didn't know if ya got that line from them or elsewhere.

[Berserker]

Just curious...didn't know if ya got that line from them or elsewhere.

Its surprising how many people get that. I have had a few PMs and replies. I thought it was kinda obscure. Going to play it now.

Eyes of the Stranger and I don't beleive in Love are my favorite by Queensryche. I got operation Mind Crime, but those are the two I like.

OL moved out, gonna have to play them.

[Berserker]

Truck is 1999. Same battery., never charged . Used to go 10 days between starts in the summer. Bough a car last fall for work, so sat alot in winter too. I try to run it every 10-14 days. With price of gas, its gets tough to start. ot 140k, so it has been driving. Which I think helps batteries.

Watch, now it will be the battery.

[Berserker]

I don't believe in love
It's never worth the pain that you feel



Is this all that's left
Of my life before me
Straight jacket memories, sedative highs
No happy ending like they've always promised

People always turn away
From the eyes of a stranger
Afraid to know what
Lies behind the stare(always like that line)

Going to have to play Mindcrime. A few others I like too.

[chnpostal]

I wore Mindcrime out.....20 years later and it's still a great album.






P.S.: I'm still bettin' on the battery. :Poke:

[Dinero]

Somebody set up a pole, er, I mean poll so we can all vote.

By the way, I'm voting battery.

[Berserker]

If I didn't tell you the age of the battery would you?

Been cranking on it since last friday, haven't rode, still starts with DTT. Started it one time with stock, ran 30-45 seconds. After all the cranking I did, I doubt it charged it back up.


I would think maybe ground, but bike starts up, without really disturbing or altering anything.

Only consitant thing, is starts with stock ignition.

I am not ruling out battery, but not 100%. Calling for 3-4" hail and tornadoes right now, hopefully get some riding in.

[LittleBear]

Well, I have seen a horn screw up the speedometer and turn signals on these new fangled machines, so I would not rule anything out.

[Dinero]

Well, I have seen a horn screw up the speedometer and turn signals on these new fangled machines, so I would not rule anything out.

But have you ever heard one full of water?

[LittleBear]

But have you ever heard one full of water?

Horns can sound a little wimpy after a low water crossing.

[Dinero]

Horns can sound a little wimpy after a low water crossing.

So I've heard.

Or not.

[Berserker]

Battery was at 12.76 after sitting for a week. Cranked it hard before switching to stock starter and ran about 45 secs. Then started up a few more times with DTT.

I have problems beleiving low voltage. High?

Either way road about 60, miles. Fine. Had dinner. Rode 5 miles and stalled after coasting off the highway to a stop. Cranked a few times and started roade home 10 miles. Idled in the garage fine. The choke was partially on when it stalled. Would think that would do it.


More then one problem? Started up, with DTT. So fuel problem?

Not sure. It stalled few weeks ago afterr coasting down a huge hill. This time started easier, no back fires.

[Jams]

Trade in time --- Let someone else sort it out. :D

[Berserker]

No I am not the way. Maybe get 2nd bike, and take twice as long to figure out.

[Berserker]

Went about 25 miles and stalled pulling up to a stop sign. Unplugged and replugged in DTT fired up. Was hard to unplug, but I am wondering if conectiosn are loose. Some tabs are broke. Been in and out so many time. It is very tough to unplug though.

Does unplugging reset something? What is still on when ignitin is off? I don't think anything on a carbed bike. withpout secruity.

Tyrapped top plug. Going to do bottom too. Maybe notch out tyrap so doesn't interferefe with wires.

I am starting to think battling two diffeant problems, or a 2nd I created. Maybe weak link is getting worse.


Last night stalled and restarted, without doing anything

LikeI said my current theory is, loose. When riding, bike and make it through, and idle it dies.
Rode another 50 miles ok.

[Berserker]

Tomorrow will wiggle connectors with bike running. They seemed tight. What would reset with ignition unplugged and plugged and not igntion switch, on/off?

[Berserker]

Wiggled the crap out of the connectors. I did make harness out of trraps.

Not so easy to lean a bike 45 degrees, chickened out. I don't think its BAs, maunual says disables starter.

Wnt for short ride, nothing.

Next time it stalls, need to get off, see if all lights are on and work. Also turn power off for 10s, and cycle and see if that makes a difference.

Sucks, takes some of the enjoyment out of riding. Not talking it to work, for a bit.

[Berserker]

Few hundred miles since tightening the connections. Pulled battery replacing it. 13.02 volts. Not sure if thats high. Couple starts seemed a little slow, maybe my imagination, I kinda look for things to much.

Though the positive was not as tight as it could have been. Wasn't loose, but barely turned it and it became loose. So if it wasn't loose, probably would be eventually.

Going with another HD battery, 6 years, can't complain. Though I think it has more to d with how much you ride it. Lots of guys get less. Heard of few 6s, and 1 7.

Its hard for me to replace this, when it seems to be working fine.

[Berserker]

I did it bought the new battery, $99 OTD. But I still got my old one. have to see if fits in tractor, I think its to tall. I just could part. Maybe will put it in, and ride around with new one. See how long it lasts. I bet another year.

[Berserker]

well Just did 2k mile last week, plus whatever I did since posting this. No problems. Over alst year, repalced ignition,volt, reg, plug wires, MAP, CKP, and battery. Not 100% what the problem was, but so far so good.

I am leaning to MAP, but won't swear to anything.