Suspect Bad Umbrella Valves - spues exccesive oil out the breathers (foam like stuff too)

[fxr4mikey]

Many know that since the completion of my build, the bike has excessive oil discharging from the breathers.
Lots of folks have been helping me to identify the problem - THANK YOU, ALL !!!

Woody started a thread titled:

"Mikey...the reason your engine is puking oil is..."

we discussed it here:

"http://www.doofclenas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158537

During my build, when I put in the 'NEW' James Gaskets umbrella valves, I noticed they did not sit down on the floor of the rocker box. I took a picture of it, and even made a comment about it:
(here: http://www.doofclenas.com/forums/sho...&postcount=142

"Then I got ready to install the middle and top rocker boxes. I replaced the umbrella valve with new ones. The new ones are from James, and sit differently in the box than the stock ones. This concerned me a bit because the valve does not sit down tight against the bottom of the box. I concluded that the pressure in the box would force the valve down, it's 'soft'. EDIT: I was a DUMBASS for making that assumption
In this pic you can see the difference in the design, and why the James valve doesn't sit all the way to the bottom in the rocker box - james valve is on the left "





Yesterday I called James Gaskets Co. and spoke with one of the engineers there, Ralph. Told him the story, he went got some of their valves, and said that he could see what I was talking about. He installed the valve in a rocker box, and then told me that he about .020 clearence between the lip of the valve and the floor of the rocker box. He further told me that, this isn't right.

He told me lots of 'stuff', then said that he'd stop by HD and buy some stock HD valves and ck it out further and call me, today or Monday.

He called me this afternoon. He said that after taking measurments and comparing the valves, that he is ordering a change in their mold that makes their valves. They clearly are not correct.

He is sending me a new James Gasket rocker box set, and two sets of HD umbrella valves, at no charge.

I asked him what I could expect to see on/from the bike if it were run with valves that don't seat, or no umbrella valves at all. He said, with bad/no vlaves, the engine will suck outside air back into the crank, the heat of the engine, the motor oil, the outside air and the humitidy in that air will casue the oil to FOAM UP and will be expelled out thu the breathers !!!!!!!!!!!!

I did not tell him that I had foaming, but when he said that to me, I said, EGGZACTLY WHUT I"M GETTING NOW !!!

He asked me to describe the look of it, I said, thick, slilmy, creamy golden in color .... he said, yes, sounds like you have foaming in your crank and it's coming out the breathers. And after looking at our umbrella valves, and that they don't seal on the floor of the rocker box, that's what I would expect you to see on your bike.



SSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

now I get to lower the engine in the frame, take off the boxes and replace the umbrella valves.

HOWEVER, I'm VERY HAPPY at the same time !!!!


should have listened to that lil voice in my head when I saw that those valves were not seated all the way down .... and my lil voice said, "you know, that just doesn't look right"

(sometimes I wish that lil fuker would SPEAK THE HELL UP !!!!)


but what did I know ..... I had never been there before..... so, how did that lil voice know that there was something wrong .......

[Red Rider]

And now we all learned sumpin too. Thanky Mikey!

Mikey, as long as you have to take the rocker boxes apart, here is another thing you MUST do!

The smallish oil drain hole right next to the umbrella valve is too friggin' small! Drill that sucker out to 1/8", it will help the oil drain out of the rocker boxes faster.

Good on ya for finding out the problem. Is James Gasket Co. going to put you on the payroll as the R & D guy?

Like this...

[why_me]

Glad you found it, Mikey!

[Sonic]

Damn you guys know some sh!t

[Geezer-Glide]

Here's the up side. They stood behind their product, went the extra yard to investigate your problem. AND in a timely manner too. Then they're sending you free shit as well.

Sucks you have to tear down again, but it's not that bad all in all.

[Red Rider]

Originally Posted by Woody218

Mikey, as long as you have to take the rocker boxes apart, here is another thing you MUST do!

The smallish oil drain hole right next to the umbrella valve is too friggin' small! Drill that sucker out to 1/8", it will help the oil drain out of the rocker boxes faster.

Good on ya for finding out the problem. Is James Gasket Co. going to put you on the payroll as the R & D guy?

Will that reduce the pressure in the box as well?

[fxr4mikey]

Originally Posted by Woody218

Mikey, as long as you have to take the rocker boxes apart, here is another thing you MUST do!

The smallish oil drain hole right next to the umbrella valve is too friggin' small! Drill that sucker out to 1/8", it will help the oil drain out of the rocker boxes faster.

Good on ya for finding out the problem. Is James Gasket Co. going to put you on the payroll as the R & D guy?

OK, I'm going to also install this kit, it comes with a 1/8" drill bit, so I guess they already talked to you

from what I've been able to find out, the 'extension' part of the kit actually raises the vent a small amount. So you get three things:
1) a larger hole for the oil to drain back into the engine
2) a higher vent, so the rocker box can hold the oil without it getting out the vent.
3) The vent extension has a check ball on it, so no air can be sucked back in from the breather bolt.

In summary/theory, this kit works in conjunction with the umbrella valve, and improves the overall breathing of the engine, and adds additional blocking outside air from entering into the engine.

The EVO Vent 'Cure Plus'

http://www.johnsmotorcycleparts.com/...29dbb3861dab8b

[Backroad Mike]

Mike;

Wow. That sure doesn't look good on their quality process does it.

Very happy that you have found the issue and will soon have it resolved.



Mike

[fxr4mikey]

Originally Posted by why_me

Glad you found it, Mikey!

well, we don't have the 'proof in the pudding' YET

but I can tell ya this, I'm A LOT HAPPIER than I was the day before yesterday

I do feel confident that I've isolated the problem, we'll find out next week !!

[fxr4mikey]

Originally Posted by Sonic

Damn you guys know some sh!t

you made me 'SMILE' I do hope you count me in that group !

I do have to admit though, I've received most of my education here, and guys like Woody and Paul and everyone else that has been helping !! THANKS !!

Then there's been some late night reading too ..... I would really like to take an introduction to internal combustion engine class .... man there's soooooooooooo much stuff to learn ....

I did the same mod to mine. Except mine isn't the "plus" version, just the Cure-Vent. You may need to grind a small relief in the top rocker cover to clear the vent extension. Put your new Dremel tool to some good use!

That, along with a Spyke Krank Vent kit, and I have NO oil coming out of the breathers!

[fxr4mikey]

Originally Posted by Geezer-Glide

Here's the up side. They stood behind their product,

Yes they did !

went the extra yard to investigate your problem.


Yes they did !

AND in a timely manner too.


Yes they did !

Then they're sending you free shit as well.


Yes they are !



Sucks you have to tear down again, but it's not that bad all in all.

You got that right ! I'm HAPPY !!


I could not be more PLEASED with the service and response that I've received from them.

I WOULD NOT hesitate to buy their products again.

You notice that when I told the story, I never had a bad thing to say about James Gaskets. I'm proud to have their stuff in my bike .... wish I didn't have to tear it down and put in the free HD umbrella valves ... but chit happens

Originally Posted by Red Rider

Will that reduce the pressure in the box as well?

No, drilling the drain holes bigger just lets the oil get out of the rocker boxes faster, less chance of it pooling and getting blown out of the breathers.