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MoCo The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

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  #31  
Old 12-04-2011, 12:20 PM
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whatever the reason, it's driven by stock holders, f the customer.
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  #32  
Old 12-04-2011, 12:43 PM
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Ever since nobody got the thing about the Judas Pez dispenser's head wobbling, I've really lost faith in you guys.
Sometimes lack of response is indicative of lack of humor in the original post, not lack of understanding.
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  #33  
Old 12-04-2011, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by huckinfog View Post
whatever the reason, it's driven by stock holders, f the customer.
Statements like this really make me laugh. Without the customer the stock is worthless, no matter how much profit is made on P&A. No company purposefully turns off the customer. To think otherwise is just ignorant.

It is not the MOCO driving the anti-internet policy forward, it is the dealer network. Harley did what it did because a majority of it's dealers, which is their primary method of distribution, complained about a very small minority of dealers who pursued a business model of high volume versus higher margin. How do they know that? Because of the customers that go into the dealer, look at the price and complain to the dealer "I'm can buy that online from Zanotti's for 20% off". The average HOG member RUB will always frequent the dealer and pay MSRP, so that part of the base is secure. However, the knowledgeable consumers will spend their money wisely, and find the lowest prices for what they want. Unfortunately, for most dealers the knowledgeable consumer is the one more likely to spend gobs of cash.

Harley sells great jackets and quality parts (mostly). I love my FXRG jacket, and I don't care where it was made. However, I'm not stupid. If I can buy it for $450 with free shipping and no sales tax rather than pay $650 + 8.25% tax that's just a no brainer. That's $200 my dealer won't get in profit and knows it when I walk in with my nice new jacket I didn't buy from him. Again, my point is it's the dealer crying that is driving the attempted policy change.
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  #34  
Old 12-04-2011, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Infidel! View Post
Statements like this really make me laugh. Without the customer the stock is worthless, no matter how much profit is made on P&A. No company purposefully turns off the customer. To think otherwise is just ignorant.

It is not the MOCO driving the anti-internet policy forward, it is the dealer network. Harley did what it did because a majority of it's dealers, which is their primary method of distribution, complained about a very small minority of dealers who pursued a business model of high volume versus higher margin. How do they know that? Because of the customers that go into the dealer, look at the price and complain to the dealer "I'm can buy that online from Zanotti's for 20% off". The average HOG member RUB will always frequent the dealer and pay MSRP, so that part of the base is secure. However, the knowledgeable consumers will spend their money wisely, and find the lowest prices for what they want. Unfortunately, for most dealers the knowledgeable consumer is the one more likely to spend gobs of cash.

Harley sells great jackets and quality parts (mostly). I love my FXRG jacket, and I don't care where it was made. However, I'm not stupid. If I can buy it for $450 with free shipping and no sales tax rather than pay $650 + 8.25% tax that's just a no brainer. That's $200 my dealer won't get in profit and knows it when I walk in with my nice new jacket I didn't buy from him. Again, my point is it's the dealer crying that is driving the attempted policy change.
I think you're both right.

But I also think more than anything that the MoCo is going to start doing internet sales directly, and this policy comes from a desire to sell parts at MSRP without having to compete with Zannotti and Lakeshore. As I said earlier, that's bull$hit, because a direct-sale doesn't have the overhead that a brick-and-mortar store has.

This is a bad policy that's going to piss off some dealers and all customers, and will have the net effect of alienating repeat customers.
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  #35  
Old 12-04-2011, 01:24 PM
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I think you're both right.

But I also think more than anything that the MoCo is going to start doing internet sales directly, and this policy comes from a desire to sell parts at MSRP without having to compete with Zannotti and Lakeshore. As I said earlier, that's bull$hit, because a direct-sale doesn't have the overhead that a brick-and-mortar store has.

This is a bad policy that's going to piss off some dealers and all customers, and will have the net effect of alienating repeat customers.
I find it difficult to believe the MOCO is going to compete directly with their dealers. Even if they (the MOCO) sell at MSRP, they are still taking business and profit from their dealers, who currently sell online at MSRP. If they do decide to compete directly with the dealers, they can not set minimum pricing limitations. That's illegal and just about guarantees they will be mired in anti-trust and price-fixing investigations for years. They can, however, legally set advertising limitations because they own the brand name. Just because they can't advertise a low price doesn't mean they can't sell at a low price.
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  #36  
Old 12-04-2011, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Infidel! View Post
I find it difficult to believe the MOCO is going to compete directly with their dealers. Even if they (the MOCO) sell at MSRP, they are still taking business and profit from their dealers, who currently sell online at MSRP. If they do decide to compete directly with the dealers, they can not set minimum pricing limitations. That's illegal and just about guarantees they will be mired in anti-trust and price-fixing investigations for years. They can, however, legally set advertising limitations because they own the brand name. Just because they can't advertise a low price doesn't mean they can't sell at a low price.
I'm not edumacated enough in antitrust law to be able to say yay or nay. I do know that there are plenty of companies that don't allow discounted pricing of their products to be advertised, and I think that's what Harley's trying to move towards. Given that Harley's also trying to prevent dealers from selling both bikes and parts outside of their immediate areas, I think it's a matter of time until they start selling P&A direct. I think that's insane.

I think their approach to this is incredibly short-sighted, and is going to end up hurting them in the long run.
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  #37  
Old 12-04-2011, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Infidel! View Post
I find it difficult to believe the MOCO is going to compete directly with their dealers. Even if they (the MOCO) sell at MSRP, they are still taking business and profit from their dealers, who currently sell online at MSRP. If they do decide to compete directly with the dealers, they can not set minimum pricing limitations. That's illegal and just about guarantees they will be mired in anti-trust and price-fixing investigations for years. They can, however, legally set advertising limitations because they own the brand name. Just because they can't advertise a low price doesn't mean they can't sell at a low price.
Bingo!


Back in the early '70's when I was working retail, the last two manufacturors to fix prices were Levi's and Timex. They tried to force all retailers to sell at MSRP to keep the drug stores and discounters on an equal footing. It didn't matter where you bought a Timex-----it was going to be the same price. The discounters, led by a chain I worked for, sucessfully sued to stop the practice.

I don't know who will try to take on MOCO, but someone will, and they will win. Just a complaint from some concerned customers to the Fair Trade folks should stop them in their tracks. A dealer maight not be able to sue and win because he will find his franchise in jepordy.

I guess we will have to take it into our own hands.
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  #38  
Old 12-04-2011, 01:52 PM
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Statements like this really make me laugh. Without the customer the stock is worthless, no matter how much profit is made on P&A. No company purposefully turns off the customer. To think otherwise is just ignorant. Again, my point is it's the dealer crying that is driving the attempted policy change.
The relative value of customer vs shareholder is totally based on the culture of the organization. I do tend to agree with you that a percentage of the dealer base is a contributing factor.
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  #39  
Old 12-04-2011, 03:53 PM
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Sometimes lack of response is indicative of lack of humor in the original post, not lack of understanding.
Or it means only the dullards have had a chance to read it so far.
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  #40  
Old 12-04-2011, 04:08 PM
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Or it means only the dullards have had a chance to read it so far.
I must have missed it while my drool cup was being emptied.....
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  #41  
Old 12-04-2011, 08:10 PM
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I must have missed it while my drool cup was being emptied.....


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  #42  
Old 12-04-2011, 09:18 PM
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I think you're missing the point.

I'm not saying that Harley's making a smart move, just that I see what they're doing. By limiting online sales to MSRP, they're going to be able to have a central Mo-Co owned site that sells parts. This will cut the dealers out of the picture and let them keep more of our accessory dollars (since current MSRP is based on dealer's overhead and markup).

The BMW model works with BMW (and Lordy you should hear the faithful defend that policy), but it would be all but impossible for it to work on Harley's scale, or in Harley's circumstances.

If Harley cut off the 20%-off advertising, and had their own site selling stuff out of the P&A catalog for 10% off (for example), then that wouldn't be (necessarily) a bad thing.

But as it sits now, Harley's poised to piss off both the dealer network and the customer base. That's a really bad move in my opinion.
I was on HD's site yesterday, looking at winter gloves. Some were dealer sale only, some were sold online. Both at HD's discretion, no? Can you work this into your theory? Seems contrary tome.

joe
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  #43  
Old 12-04-2011, 09:29 PM
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I was on HD's site yesterday, looking at winter gloves. Some were dealer sale only, some were sold online. Both at HD's discretion, no? Can you work this into your theory? Seems contrary tome.

joe
Nope, and I'm not going to try.

I've heard firsthand (from Jenni) that Harley is going to end the practice of dealers selling out of their areas. Likewise, their attempt to end the 20% off advertising has been in the works for over a year.

I have no idea what the MotherShip's endgame is, only that I know that they're trying to end all discounting on P&A, and there's serious talk of there being online ordering through the H-D website. I have no idea how they'll implement that.

I think it's all a terrible idea though.
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  #44  
Old 12-05-2011, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by '05Train View Post
Nope, and I'm not going to try.

I've heard firsthand (from Jenni) that Harley is going to end the practice of dealers selling out of their areas. Likewise, their attempt to end the 20% off advertising has been in the works for over a year.

I have no idea what the MotherShip's endgame is, only that I know that they're trying to end all discounting on P&A, and there's serious talk of there being online ordering through the H-D website. I have no idea how they'll implement that.

I think it's all a terrible idea though.
I realized my prior post wasn't clear. Some gloves were dealer only, and some were online by HD, on their site.

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  #45  
Old 12-05-2011, 06:43 PM
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I realized my prior post wasn't clear. Some gloves were dealer only, and some were online by HD, on their site.

joe
Not online by HD, you have to select a dealer to add them to your cart. You would be purchasing from that dealer, not direct from HD.

It's funny how they let you select any dealer that sells online, even if you are out of their territory. I can select a dealer in New Jersey if I wanted to. Kind of contrary to their stated objective.
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