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Old 02-15-2017, 04:05 PM
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Target Tune Users, Report!

Greg, others who have been using the Target Tune setup for the Power Vision; It's been a while (nearly two years) and I'm STILL dragging my feet on adding one.

What are your thoughts on the TT? A WIN or a FAIL?
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Old 02-15-2017, 08:02 PM
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Not running it, but I talked to Jamie about it extensively prior to its release. If you're trying to self-tune something that's not a Stage 1, and if you're cellularly opposed to taking your bike to a tuner, it's a neat toy.

But nothing replaces a dyno. Nothing. The TT gives you the ability to "see" what the O2 sensors are seeing, and can give you the best street tune out there. What it doesn't do is give you the actual hp/tq feedback that a dyno does. Not to mention that there's just some areas of the map that are difficult/dangerous to get to on the street.

If you have a good tuner available, he's going to give you better results. If you don't, the TT is a decent option.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:05 PM
Ancient Iron Ancient Iron is offline
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I don't know if I have a good answer Ricky. I do like the way AT works with TT. It doesn't change your AFR table during AT. But other than that.... I'm really not 100% sure it's buying me a whole lot. The tune I had in it running on NB's was pretty good and all I did was have Jaime swap it over to work with TT and loaded it back in. There seemed to be a very slight improvement after some AT sessions then but as Russ alluded to it's hard to tell without a dyno.

I'm getting pretty close to getting out of the Seattle area and back to Kansas and my plan then is to ride it up to KC and spend a day letting Joe Lyons tune on it. I'll ask for a baseline pull prior to tuning so we can see where it was and where it ends up.

I'll discuss it with Joe but my feeling right now is I'm somewhat suspect that running on those WB's is really any better that a good NB tuned map with closed and open loop areas in it. I agree with Russ that it doesn't replace a dyno and a good tuner running it, but I'll hold up on judging it until I see how close it was.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:44 PM
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Target Tune Users, Report!

I'm well versed in the value of the guru, btdt, got T shirt and suitably empty wallet while there. However, *I* like to change things too much. e.g. I did the deed, paid the guru, two months later, went to a bigger bore.
If I went the guru route every time I changed mufflers pipes air cleaner cams that would be prohibitive. That and the fact that the best tuner within 500 miles is unfortunately still a long ways from Smart Dave.

~btw: I read a rumor that Dave was leaving Poconos~ what do you know about dat?

Anyway, the PV with AT has been my elixir for adapting to the changes in lieu of a couple grand worth of magic Dyno incantations at a distant locale.

The PV AT isn't perfection of course though it's far more capable than *I* am at tweakage.
The TT is billed as having a much simpler mechanism with vastly greater autonomy to just keep it in tune as you go, without my having to "math" or perform multiple roadside data transfers or cell tweaking. Of course, *nothing* ever works as well as hyperbole, so that's why I'm asking the question of those who have actually run it. Can it really do all the things? Can it really adapt after a big hardware change like a new pipe or 113 kit, etc?
At the very least (according to the pitch) there should be little need to dick with it while it *should* keep the bike running well, all the time.
That's the imputed or maybe stated Midas touch it's said to possess.
I'd really like to know what the real world use looks like.
Ironically, the people with the true expertise to judge its value and ability are the very same experts that are adversely impacted by the device's function. The experts *may* be disinclined to promote the anti-guru machine.
The fact is, if TT *truly is as capable as its claim* that it would directly affect the demand for gurus. I'd still want a guru tune when I'm "done" but I don't know when that will happen.
So the real question becomes 'will it work well enough with a Stage 2 or Stage whatever?
I don't know which stage 1200-pound-wheelie would be, but '1' isn't it.



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Old 02-15-2017, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancient Iron View Post
I don't know if I have a good answer Ricky. I do like the way AT works with TT. It doesn't change your AFR table during AT. But other than that.... I'm really not 100% sure it's buying me a whole lot. The tune I had in it running on NB's was pretty good and all I did was have Jaime swap it over to work with TT and loaded it back in. There seemed to be a very slight improvement after some AT sessions then but as Russ alluded to it's hard to tell without a dyno.



I'm getting pretty close to getting out of the Seattle area and back to Kansas and my plan then is to ride it up to KC and spend a day letting Joe Lyons tune on it. I'll ask for a baseline pull prior to tuning so we can see where it was and where it ends up.



I'll discuss it with Joe but my feeling right now is I'm somewhat suspect that running on those WB's is really any better that a good NB tuned map with closed and open loop areas in it. I agree with Russ that it doesn't replace a dyno and a good tuner running it, but I'll hold up on judging it until I see how close it was.


Did you make any significant changes to the build or pipes after you started running the TT?
If so, how long did it seem to take for the TT to dial in?
Obviously, a guru tune means that the bike is set up optimally at the time, but what happens when you ride up the mountains or through Death Valley or down at the beach in the fall. Even the best guru massage is limited to Dyno day conditions such as temps baro and humidity. The tune in other environments remains a set of compromises.
Using the narrow bands (as most of us are) when you're in cruise conditions, the ECU can tweak for these conditions. But all other cells are fixed.
The TT would supposedly add the ability to tweak ALL areas, not just cruise.
Have you had any circumstance where you felt "I can tell the TT is doing this better" (or worse) vs the PV AT?
Most important, I guess is this: other than the expense, are there any downsides to running the TT?

Edit to add: how much have you had to interact with the TT; how much AT have you had to do with it?


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Old 02-16-2017, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancient Iron View Post
I don't know if I have a good answer Ricky. I do like the way AT works with TT. It doesn't change your AFR table during AT. But other than that.... I'm really not 100% sure it's buying me a whole lot. The tune I had in it running on NB's was pretty good and all I did was have Jaime swap it over to work with TT and loaded it back in. There seemed to be a very slight improvement after some AT sessions then but as Russ alluded to it's hard to tell without a dyno.

I'm getting pretty close to getting out of the Seattle area and back to Kansas and my plan then is to ride it up to KC and spend a day letting Joe Lyons tune on it. I'll ask for a baseline pull prior to tuning so we can see where it was and where it ends up.

I'll discuss it with Joe but my feeling right now is I'm somewhat suspect that running on those WB's is really any better that a good NB tuned map with closed and open loop areas in it. I agree with Russ that it doesn't replace a dyno and a good tuner running it, but I'll hold up on judging it until I see how close it was.
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Old 02-16-2017, 07:59 AM
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Old 02-16-2017, 10:58 AM
Ancient Iron Ancient Iron is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSurly View Post
Did you make any significant changes to the build or pipes after you started running the TT?
If so, how long did it seem to take for the TT to dial in?
Obviously, a guru tune means that the bike is set up optimally at the time, but what happens when you ride up the mountains or through Death Valley or down at the beach in the fall. Even the best guru massage is limited to Dyno day conditions such as temps baro and humidity. The tune in other environments remains a set of compromises.
Using the narrow bands (as most of us are) when you're in cruise conditions, the ECU can tweak for these conditions. But all other cells are fixed.
The TT would supposedly add the ability to tweak ALL areas, not just cruise.
Have you had any circumstance where you felt "I can tell the TT is doing this better" (or worse) vs the PV AT?
Most important, I guess is this: other than the expense, are there any downsides to running the TT?

Edit to add: how much have you had to interact with the TT; how much AT have you had to do with it?


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I understand your questions Ricky. I still have some of the same ones myself in that I can't prove that the TT is doing anything any better than the basic PV AT was doing. It stands to reason that it must be because effectively with the TT you have a completely closed loop tune covered by WB's right? Maybe my butt dyno just isn't sensitive enough to tell.

As for interaction, there really isn't any. That little TT module just lives under the seat, interfacing the WB's to the ECM. You still plug your PV in the same way and when entering AT you just choose TT from a short menu and run AT just like always. The nice part is it doesn't change AFR nor does it retard timing during AT. I have changed exhaust's, cams, and heads with it and it seems to adapt pretty quickly. 1 or 2 AT sessions and VE's are pretty stable. Then I do a good data log or just set up F&R CLI on the PV gauges and watch it. I have 30 minute logs that show the closed loop integrator never varying more than 2% from target AFR. That seems to indicate the WB's are pretty damn steady and TT is working as advertised to me.

So if you like to tune and tinker, as both of us seem to, it is a fairly interesting piece of equipment.
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Old 02-16-2017, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancient Iron View Post
As for interaction, there really isn't any.
I have changed exhaust's, cams, and heads with it and it seems to adapt pretty quickly.
That's the core value of it, it would seem. Whenever I make changes and then AT again and again (and again), the tuner DOES make the big corrections pretty quickly and you can certainly tell empirically that it's honing in on a decent tune. My issue with it is that it gets to "acceptable tune" level and never gets all the way to 'decent' tune. It also appears that some of the corrected areas 'overshoot' their targets. When I AT, I take advantage of the local hilly countryside and I can cover virtually every cell. I've had a ton of practice at this. After many piggy-backed AT sessions it will be running pretty well with a couple of minor areas where there are transitions at low and mid rpm and throttle that it will have a bobble or bog here and there. I will look at the 3D tables on the PC and they look like boulder- and chasm-strewn moonscapes. Using the PC I will smooth them, removing what appear to be just *random* high and low spots and creating rolling hills and valleys instead of crags. When I load that back to the ECM, Voila! A decent tune and road manners. NOT a guru tune but decent. It seems far too much trouble for the result. Then, a change of parts, locale, weather or season and I need to AT again... more crags and smoothing required. Cruise range is good everywhere (NB) but the open loop can get messy. I'm leaning toward TT if only to make it less hands-on.
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