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  #31  
Old 08-10-2011, 07:35 PM
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But How Do I Know If I've Got Enough Timing?

Heh. Oh boy. Ready to pay for a tune yet?

The AKR will tell you when you've got too much timing. Nothing tells you when you don't have enough. You've got to go through and add timing, then do a data run to see if the AKR kicks in. Anecdotally I can tell you that you want to substantially increase timing in the idle range to keep the bike cooler. You also want more than the base calibration gives you at low rpm/low kPa settings.

At some point you'll reach diminishing returns. Make sure the AKR isn't kicking in. Resign yourself to the fact that you're not going to be able to get it much closer without either alienating your friends and family and losing your job. Or paying for a dyno tune.

Timing's Done! VEs Are Done! I've Adjusted Everything I Want to Adjust! Now What?

Are you sure? Got your throttle control where you want it? Got your Decel Enleanment set just so?

Create yourself a new tuning map and do one last monster V-Tune run. Run V-Tune and compare the results to your final map. Manually change (transfer the VEs to your existing map, don't create a new one) anything that sticks out like a sore thumb. If the VEs changed much (they shouldn't have), do another data run to look at timing. Assuming all's well....

Congratulations, you've just tuned your bike!

I've spent the better part of 4 months working on and off on this. My VEs are beautiful. With the exception of that horrific detonation event in my front cylinder around 2750rpm, my timing is sublime. But I've spent 4 months at this, when Dave spent 6 hours doing the Fatcat tune.

Yes, you can tune your bike yourself assuming you have the time and decent roads to work with. At some point I'll take the bike up to Bethlehem to see how I did, and what Dave can improve (and, of course, 'cause I love me some Dave, J, and Alex). But what this process has really taught me is how talented the top-tier tuners really are that can get better results in a matter of hours.
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  #32  
Old 08-10-2011, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by vafatboy View Post
While I likely will never need this tutorial as I don't have a 02 equipped bike, I can appreciate the difficulty it takes to convey the how to.

Folks look at this and think it's hard, yet if you do one thing at a time while following directions, it's not so bad.
Thanks Warren.

It really isn't that hard. It takes a certain amount of meticulousness and absolute adherence to the order in which things have to be done. And notes. Lots and lots of notes.

It also helps that there are a lot of very talented people out there who are generous with their time when it comes to answering questions. I simply can't say enough what a huge help Smart Dave's been. Additionally, I've picked Steve Cole's brain and Jamie Long's.

The really cool thing is feeling how well the bike can run with just a simple Stage 1.
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  #33  
Old 08-10-2011, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by '05Train View Post
So at any rate, pants off, cold drink, and load your final map into MasterTune, and select the Front Spark Table. Start DataMaster back up, load the file you recorded, get yourself a notepad, set the playback speed slow enough so that you can hit stop when you see spark being retarded, and hit "Start".
I've set up a spreadsheet using pivot tables to pull the knock retard values by just dumping in the data file. Haven't figured out anything better than taking the average of the events at each cell location (using the spreadsheet). But I've had pretty decent success.

That "MyTune" program Warren mentioned is automatic and somehow, IIRC, incorporates some kind of algorithm to pull only a small amount of timing where knock occurs (vs. pulling what the ECM does by default in the AKR table).
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  #34  
Old 08-10-2011, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by RKotter View Post
I've set up a spreadsheet using pivot tables to pull the knock retard values by just dumping in the data file. Haven't figured out anything better than taking the average of the events at each cell location (using the spreadsheet). But I've had pretty decent success.

That "MyTune" program Warren mentioned is automatic and somehow, IIRC, incorporates some kind of algorithm to pull only a small amount of timing where knock occurs (vs. pulling what the ECM does by default in the AKR table).
My tune hasn't kept up with all the calibrations, however, I spoke with him the other day and the "custom axes example" can be edited with a XML editor to match your MAP axes which I had to do for the VE tuning.

I'll get to ignition when I'm done with the fuel. My Tune.....enter current ignition tables, load DM2 or DM3 file and generate new ignition tables with timing pulled if knock is logged in the Data File. Advance all other cells, repeat and rinse.
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  #35  
Old 08-10-2011, 08:25 PM
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Good write up Russ.

A question: In your opinion are you getting just as good of a calibration with the narrow band O2's after this process, as you would with a wide band capable system?

Just curious.
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  #36  
Old 08-10-2011, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Ancient Iron View Post
Good write up Russ.

A question: In your opinion are you getting just as good of a calibration with the narrow band O2's after this process, as you would with a wide band capable system?

Just curious.
This is a can of worms.

The systems that advertise WEGO systems aren't using real WEGOs. A real WEGO costs big, big bucks. What the Thundermax and Dynojet systems are using is a wider band sensor than the factory units, but they don't switch nearly as fast. They're not true widebands.

Judging from the results that Dave got on the dyno, and what I'm able to replicate utilizing V-Tune, there's not a real gulf between what's possible with WEGOs and what's possible with the current narrow-band sensors.

That would probably not hold true if we were using a Mass Air fuel injection system.
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  #37  
Old 08-13-2011, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by '05Train View Post
So You Want to V-Tune....

Good!

Now take your laptop, have a seat on the sofa, and don't bother programming the ECM just yet. Got your map open? Good. Now minimize Mastertune and open the TTS folder in "My Computer". Open "HD", then open "Mastertune", then open "Big Twin". You should be able to see all the various .mt8 and .mt7 files. Create a subfolder in here (mine's called "Mytunes", you can call yours whatever you want) for your tunes. Open that subfolder and create another one with today's date as the folder name. Do this every day you do any mucking around with your tune, and it'll make life a whole lot easier trying to find stuff.

Once you've got all that housekeeping done, close that and maximize Mastertune. You'll be looking at the Main Lambda Table. Highlight everything other than the 95 & 100 kPa cells (leave them be). Using the buttons at the top of the table, you want to max everything out so that all cells are the same value, then reduce them all to .977. The TTS Tuning guide recommends .981, but I use .977 as it's as rich as you can run while keeping the bike in open loop. I do this because we're going to disable a lot of the safeguards that keep the engine happy.

With the Main Lambda Table set, move on to the "Accel Enrichment" table. Highlight everything and zero it out. Do the same with "Decel Enleanment".

Then go to "ECM Tuning Constants", select the "PE Mode" tab, and set the RPMs to 10,000. There's another tab in there for Cam Selector Data. With a stock cam, leave it alone. You have the ability to to a cam data recording, but the stock cals are already set with the correct IVO and IVS, so there's no sense diddling with them.

On some forums, especially one in which they do a lot of Talking about Harley Tech, it's recommended that you also disable the Adaptive Knock Retard. I strongly disagree with that at this point. You can get the VEs stabilized just fine with the knock retard in place, and you don't have to worry about grenading your engine in the process.

Your tuning map is set, so now select "save as" from the file menu. Use a name you'll remember. If I were doing this today, my filename would be "081011tuning", and it would go into the "081011" folder inside the "Mytunes" folder. Got it?

Now put your pants on, go outside, and plug the laptop into the bike and follow the steps from my last post to program the ECM.
Did you mean closed Russ?
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  #38  
Old 08-13-2011, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Ancient Iron View Post
Did you mean closed Russ?
Sure did. I'll edit it.
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  #39  
Old 08-13-2011, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancient Iron View Post
Good write up Russ.

A question: In your opinion are you getting just as good of a calibration with the narrow band O2's after this process, as you would with a wide band capable system?

Just curious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by '05Train View Post
This is a can of worms.

The systems that advertise WEGO systems aren't using real WEGOs. A real WEGO costs big, big bucks. What the Thundermax and Dynojet systems are using is a wider band sensor than the factory units, but they don't switch nearly as fast. They're not true widebands.

Judging from the results that Dave got on the dyno, and what I'm able to replicate utilizing V-Tune, there's not a real gulf between what's possible with WEGOs and what's possible with the current narrow-band sensors.

That would probably not hold true if we were using a Mass Air fuel injection system.
The Vtune program won't tune at WOT, in decel and is questionable at idle speeds. You are blending the VE values out to these areas. While that will get you real close, it won't be as perfect as you could get with a combo of Vtune and TwinScan (using the WEGO). Blending should get you close enough to get by, but in my experience it will leave you a little lean in the 90-100 kPa range. That is where the value of a good tuner with a dyno comes in. They can tune those areas to perfection with ease. IS that worth another $400? You have to decide that. How often do you ride at WOT, and for how long?

Increasing the timing at idle makes for a smoother idling motor. I advanced mine and now it's almost softailish at idle.

Russ, this is a great starter kit of instructions for anybody wishing to tune their bike themselves. You've put it together much more eloquently and entertaining than I ever could have. There are a few things I do that I think help a lot.
  • When using mt8 files, you should at least set the IVO value. This tells the software what the cam timing is (IVO=intake valve opening). You can use the estimator in the application, but it won't be close. It's best to go through the procedure, which consists of setting Datamaster to collect Cam Data, then letting your bike idle for a minute or two. After that data is collected, run the camshaft analyzer. Wherever the line makes a sharp break upwards is the value you need to set as the IVO.
  • Set the Throttle Blade Control to max out all the values in all the cells. It provides much better throttle response when you need it. If you do a lot of slow speed riding, this will come in handy.
  • Set the PE and AE (Power Enrichment and Accel Enrichment) tables to zero prior to your Vtune runs. You will collect more data, more quickly this way. When PE and/or AE are active, no data will be collected. Set them to zero and it will cut your tuning time in half.
  • The more info you ask from the ECM, the slower it can deliver it, so set your data type to the specific data you are looking for. So, advance the timing prior to doing a timing run, and set the data type to spark data.
  • Use your brake to help you get the upper kPa range filled in. Don't get on it and stay on it or you will glaze your pads. Just use it so that you can get the MAP up into those cells.
  • Use a remote display device. I have a USB powered display that I attach to my handlebars. It is invaluable in knowing EXACTLY which cell you are in. The first few times I Vtuned I ran a bunch of WOT runs thinking I was filling in the upper cells only to find out that no data was collected there at all.
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Old 08-13-2011, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infidel! View Post
The Vtune program won't tune at WOT, in decel and is questionable at idle speeds. You are blending the VE values out to these areas. While that will get you real close, it won't be as perfect as you could get with a combo of Vtune and TwinScan (using the WEGO). Blending should get you close enough to get by, but in my experience it will leave you a little lean in the 90-100 kPa range. That is where the value of a good tuner with a dyno comes in. They can tune those areas to perfection with ease. IS that worth another $400? You have to decide that. How often do you ride at WOT, and for how long?
Again, I believe that a good tuner is worth his weight in gold. I've diddled around with my VEs at WOT to avoid the lean condition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infidel! View Post
Increasing the timing at idle makes for a smoother idling motor. I advanced mine and now it's almost softailish at idle.
Amen. This makes a ton of difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infidel! View Post
Russ, this is a great starter kit of instructions for anybody wishing to tune their bike themselves. You've put it together much more eloquently and entertaining than I ever could have. There are a few things I do that I think help a lot.
  • Set the Throttle Blade Control to max out all the values in all the cells. It provides much better throttle response when you need it. If you do a lot of slow speed riding, this will come in handy.
  • Set the PE and AE (Power Enrichment and Accel Enrichment) tables to zero prior to your Vtune runs. You will collect more data, more quickly this way. When PE and/or AE are active, no data will be collected. Set them to zero and it will cut your tuning time in half.
  • The more info you ask from the ECM, the slower it can deliver it, so set your data type to the specific data you are looking for. So, advance the timing prior to doing a timing run, and set the data type to spark data.
  • Use your brake to help you get the upper kPa range filled in. Don't get on it and stay on it or you will glaze your pads. Just use it so that you can get the MAP up into those cells.
  • Use a remote display device. I have a USB powered display that I attach to my handlebars. It is invaluable in knowing EXACTLY which cell you are in. The first few times I Vtuned I ran a bunch of WOT runs thinking I was filling in the upper cells only to find out that no data was collected there at all.
I'd love to have a remote display.

And I'm still playing around with things as well. The big thing, as I mentioned and Danny reinforces, is to shut off anything that's adding or subtracting fuel when VTuning (that means PE, AE, DE). As long as the bike's warmed up, you don't need to worry about Warmup Enrichment.
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  #41  
Old 08-13-2011, 08:53 PM
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What Russ has written here has pushed him into his 4th year apprenticeship. Nice write up. Don't do anything dumb like getting a job at a dealer.
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:55 PM
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Old 08-13-2011, 11:30 PM
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Old 08-14-2011, 09:51 AM
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When I get the wires, I'll hook it up just to read the data.
I'll let a pro mess w/any tweeking.

The only (lil) thing I noticed is in the very warm too hot weather.

Accelerating, 2nd, 3rd an may 4th. It'd pop. Now, on the cooler days. No popping.

Since it ain't broke, I'll just read Russ's tutorials

BTW, usually 40-44 mpg's. Don't do much hot dogging.
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Old 08-14-2011, 12:21 PM
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Anything over 40 MPG is great. Most popping is annoying, but not detrimental
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